Believing Jesus is Gods incarnate helps Christians to understand the Trinity, What do you think?

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13 Answers

Ray  Dart Profile
Ray Dart answered

I think the "Trinity" was invented by early Christians who were in two minds about whether to worship god or the one claiming to be his son. To add a degree of mysticism (essential in all religions) the "Holy Spirit" was added later.

Jesus himself did not claim to be god incarnate, but his/her/its son, and seems to have suggested that we are ALL children of god. (A vanishingly small number will have have a virgin birth though.)

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Call me Z
Call me Z commented
Check your work, lady horse, you just contradicted yourself. i guess you missed the whole Protestant Reformation thing, huh?
Ray  Dart
Ray Dart commented
Almost everyone who quotes "scripture" with detail is choosing odd lines of the bible to justify their position/opinion/interpretation.
Just Ice
Just Ice commented
indeed. LH did not quote one of the most clear and unambiguous statements of Jesus in John 17:3, where Jesus declares the Father to be "the ONLY true God" thus in a few precise words eliminating the possibility of anyone else apart from the Father being true God. So if Jesus was speaking the truth in that verse then it is obvious that neither Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit, nor anyone else can be God.
Jann Nikka Profile
Jann Nikka answered

Trinity is a man made/invented concept, some say its a Catholic dogma,  its not in the Bible, the word is not in the Bible. Jesus never claim to be GOD. He always said I came to do the will of he who sent me. Jesus never prayed to himself and when dying he cried out to his GOD.

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Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
Well, that's why truth exists and does so independently of our attempts to understand it.

But the problem of using predication to try and understand God is that every perfection we ascribe to Him winds up being a limitation on our understanding.

Limited beings trying to understand an unlimited being suffers from us having to previous experience of the nature of such an existence.
Darik Majoren
Darik Majoren commented
"But the problem of using predication to try and understand God is that every perfection we ascribe to Him winds up being a limitation on our understanding.

Limited beings trying to understand an unlimited being suffers from us having to previous experience of the nature of such an existence"

This is the default position of almost all believers in regards to the not understanding or knowing the mind of God. It is an understandable position given the descriptors provided by the original authors, be it inspired or otherwise at.
In other words . . . "I get why it ends up here".

Have a Happy New years my friend.
Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
I agree.

That's why any opinions about the existence of God are welcome. They are usually interesting, and interestingly enough, the majority of people have one.

If He does exist, I would find it interesting to see how those who became convinced that He did not exist did so---presented perhaps by some "heavenly" (or "hellish) slide show.

We'll never know for sure until we "die."

Happy New Year to you as well.
Call me Z Profile
Call me Z answered

The Trinity is a Catholic abstraction of Biblical teaching, one of many. This isn't what I think, it is a fact. 

There was a need to reconcile the concept of Christ as half-divine with the existence of an already recognized, separate Divine Creator. The concept of the Holy Spirit, which is the embodiment of a believing state of mind, was formulated by 3rd or 4th century clerics, not lifted from scripture, to weave the "father and son" entities into a communicable (though tedious) ideology. It also served the cause of elevating FAITH (read: abandonment of reason) to the level of highest virtue. The result was spun as a Sacred (or Holy) Triumvirate, with each aspect retaining an equal status of divine elevation in the eyes of the church.

I think if one studies the deep historical evolution of man's legion of religious deities, it becomes clearer how this concept (like many others in Christendom, including Christmas) arose from the selective adoption of earlier Pagan practices.

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Call me Z
Call me Z commented
Thanks, Tom.
..and yes, I took your meaning.
Ray  Dart
Ray Dart commented
I've just read all that again (so that makes twice). Terrific stuff. I may even read it again later. Clever debate.
Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
Even in a pick-up game, two pros usually produce something worthwhile to watch.
Maurice Korvo Profile
Maurice Korvo answered

I figure its all very confusing, and I will wait till I die to find out the answer, (or, if the atheists are right, I will not find out but I will no longer be around to care)

Didge Doo Profile
Didge Doo answered

Maybe we should put it on the back-burner...

Thrice Gotcha Profile
Thrice Gotcha answered

jesus never claimed divinity nor did he claim that he was anything other then a prophet

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Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
@Just Ice

If He has revealed it, and you think you missed it, either keep looking or take it up with Him.

No, not at all---some people may think that you believe in God as He has revealed Himself since you are so adamant that He is really a restricted being.

I'm just on your side---I think you serve the atheists better than you serve those who believe in Him.

But again---that's between you and Him.
Just Ice
Just Ice commented
1- "If He has revealed it [the trinity]" then someone would by now have

a] shown me the verse where He or Jesus taught it, for Jesus declared in John 18:20 "... I spake openly to the world; ........ and in secret have 1 said nothing." and

b] shown me that it is not confusing for "God is not the author of confusion "

2- good marks to you for "I think you serve the atheists better than you serve those who believe in Him." You're not far off. I don't serve them, but I admire their loyalty to reason. A loyalty that has led many of them back, or for the first time, into theism. The rational theism of Islam. One example is the British graduate in the video below. His family wasn't particularly religious. The only reason they attended church was to qualify for places in a local good school run by the Church of England. His family didn't mind that he was an active atheist challenging people's beliefs in God, but when he announced to them that his reasoning had led him to Islam, his mother said she'd rather he had said that he had become gay. He had to leave home without any notice at all. The power of reason.
Just Ice
Just Ice commented
ah, the link to the video is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-sL6aEpcSM
Zack -  Mr. GenXer Profile

Sounds like b/s to me.

Toxic Hairball Profile
Toxic Hairball answered

I think there are many Christians who are hazy on the whole idea. No wonder.

Once you begin to accept absurdities, the merely implausible is much easier to swallow.

Pepper pot Profile
Pepper pot answered

I never understood the Trinity concept, and when I asked men of the cloth had trouble explaining it.

The bible says the following:-

Deut 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

Cookie Roma Profile
Cookie Roma answered

Perhaps it's because I didn't come to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior until I was in my thirties, but the trinity is a fairly simple concept to understand. 

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Just Ice
Just Ice commented
1- "what else could the second person of the trinity, the Word, incarnate be?" tut, tut. If only you paid attention to his words and took them seriously. You see, according to Mark 6:4 Jesus referring to himself said to them, "A PROPHET is not without honour except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home." Now you might not take much notice of that but according to Matthew 21:11 it was not just the odd person or two who believed that he was a prophet, but "the MULTITUDE said , This is Jesus the PROPHET of Nazareth of Galilee".

2- I can understand why out of frustration you'd say, "Of CURSE He is" referring to each of the writers of those verses, and, by extension, all other verses which diminish the alleged divine nature of Jesus.

3- I make worse typos :) :) :)
Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
@Just Ice

I am very near sighted and I have just ordered new reading glasses; but I cannot read what I type with the clarity I would prefer.

I have a tendency to double type my "e" in words, so I find spell check catching me a lot.

I also notice that when I approve a change, it does not always show up.

So, once again "assumption" drops its unpleasant load. I have no frustration with you, Just Ice. It is not my job to defend the truth. Once I utter it, my obligation to anyone ceases.

I even stopped explaining it a while ago. Too much effort on my part and the person that I am addressing is either simply waiting to shoot the birds I throw up rather than appreciate their beauty and uniqueness---or alternatively, that person really has no skin in the game; he'd rather talk about God (or god) rather than talk to Him for clarification.

The Bible seems to indicate that He prefers that we go to Him for clarification and answers. (If it is also true that only the Holy Spirit understands the mind of God; if one don't believe in the Trinity, I'd say that one is faced with the "mother of all Catch 22's."
Just Ice
Just Ice commented
1- Of what benefit is it to us "that only the Holy Spirit understands the mind of God"?

2- Good. I found yet another thing on which I agree with you, TJ. It is indeed a great "mother of all Catch 22's." A bit like "you can't come in to check whether I have got the Godzilla in there until you promise that you will certify that what I have in there is the Godzilla."
Tom  Jackson Profile
Tom Jackson answered

The Catholic teaching is that God (one nature, three persons---Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit) has always existed.

When the second person of the Trinity became flesh (Jesus Christ in the hypostatic union), that occurred "later."

The Trinity is "explained" in Catholic theology by generation and spiration.

So here's what I think:

        The Incarnation helps me understand God, but it does not specifically help me understand the Trinity.  If I do not understand the Trinity, I cannot understand the Incarnation.

And I also think that humanity understands God over the time of the existence of the human race---as a "people."  (Refer to the Body of Christ.)

And I also think that to that end, God established a Church to facilitate the understanding of Himself by mankind and to coordinate the realities from all of the inaccurate impressions of Him that mankind has and will continue to manufacture---until we finally get all of the necessary answers in eternity.

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Just Ice
Just Ice commented
1- "that is not what I said" - but the facts remain unchallenged that

a] God NEVER taught the trinity to anyone.

b] Jesus never taught it either.

c] You have failed to produce any evidence that either of them did.

d] You are holding onto a doctrine that neither of them taught.

e] You're a more committed follower of whoever taught that doctrine than you are of either God or Jesus.

2- Even in your story the guy IS really saved, which is always the main objective in any flood.

3- Could you go back to the source which told that "maybe God thought you should at least know about the book" and find out from it the verses where God, or Jesus, in simple, clear and unambiguous words linked salvation to belief in the trinity?
Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
@Just Ice

Not interested in the boat either, huh?

Careful---It might be presumptive of you to assume you will survive this flood.
Just Ice
Just Ice commented
TJ
Apart from common sense being a warning against the trinity, there are so many warnings spread all over the Bible itself against beliefs such as the trinity. Even the statement in your Bible that God is not the author of confusion is a warning against the trinity, a doctrine so confusing that no one has EVER been able to explain it Everyone who has ever tried to make sense of it gives up in the end and calls it a "divine mystery". What clearer warning sign could there be? Alas, ‘Seeing they see not, hearing they hear not, neither will they understand.’ Mathew 13:13

have a nice day
Audrey  Mack Profile
Audrey Mack answered

To believe the Trinity you first start with the definition of the Trinity.

Three divine Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God.  These three "Persons"  are not desperate and distinct individuals but are the modes in which the divine essence exist.

The encyclopedia Britannica says the word Trinity or the doctrine appears in the New testament.

The bible tells us a personal name of the father.ma Jehovah

His son. Jesus... But no name for the holy spirit.milkman

Acts 7:55,56 says Jesus is standing at God's right hand.  No mention of holy Spirit.  Hmmmmm

John 8:17,18. Jesus spoke of himself as being ann individual  separate and distinct from his father.

Why did Jesus say his Father would send the holy spirit to help his apostle in his name after his death? 

Hard to believe in something that contra dicts itself when you do the homework

Just Ice Profile
Just Ice answered

1- If believing
Jesus is Gods incarnate helps Christians to understand the Trinity then I'd appreciate it if they could explain it to me.

2- "God incarnate" is an oxymoron. It's self contradictory. How can God [immortal] become flesh [mortal]?

3- If God became Jesus then God would cease to exist, because He became Jesus. If a circle became a square or a wooden rod  became ashes then the circle would be no more neither would the wooden rod.

4- The trinity is never mentioned by name anywhere in the Bible and neither was the concept ever taught by Jesus or anyone before him.

5- On the contrary, one of the clearest and most unambiguous statements by Jesus is his declaration in John 17:3 that the Father is "the ONLY true God". In that simple and precise declaration Jesus rules out the possibility of him being God, or the Holy Spirit, or anyone or anything else.

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Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
@Toxic Hairball

Well, you are inadvertently right about the Holy Spirit---at least in part.

The human mind is incapable of producing the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the product of what is called "spiration" in the trinity.

But I am pleased that you are content---even if it is based on an erroneous conclusion.

And I agree, the Z is never less than articulate in presenting his take on reality.
Just Ice
Just Ice commented
I'm with you TH
TJ
1- Anything that "compels belief in the trinity." despite it going against common sense is not worth a second look.

2- "There is for us no knowledge except our own knowledge, no truth except self-acquired truth." that describes dreams almost perfectly and that is exactly where the trinity belongs. No matter with what clarity and how many times I appear in your dreams, it can never be a reality for anyone else, not even for me. The same applies to your trinity and the "clarity" with which you "see" it.

3- TJ If you lead a horse to a mirage it CANNOT drink no matter how convinced you are that it IS water. Also if you lead a horse to water but can't make him drink it will not be simply because "even horses have free will." it will most likely be because he ain't thirsty or doesn't trust putting his snout in the water.
Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
@Just Ice

I enjoy the vision of you with a snout.

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