The trinity and believing Jesus is God incarnate---what do you think?


8 Answers

Ray  Dart Profile
Ray Dart answered

I am agnostic (not QUITE an atheist) but I really shouldn't answer this, should I?

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Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
Hey, we are never going to have proof in this life unless we happen to be around for what is described as the "second coming."

Until we die, everything is an opinion.

Personally, I always welcome yours.
Twallgirl Wallace
The bible tells us at Phillipians 2:6 speaking of Jesus: Although he was existing in God's form gave no consideration that he should be equal to God. Jesus know his place in God arrangement. He said himself that he came himself to do the will of the one who sent him, God.
Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
Yes, God the Father. He is the Word, the second person of the trinity---both God and man.
Didge Doo Profile
Didge Doo answered

A few years ago a Taoist priest was asked by an interviewer whether he really believed that Lao Tzu had lived for 83 years in his mother's womb before being born (with a long grey beard).  The priest replied, "If such stories help people to believe then who am I to deny them?"

From a similar point of view, the Trinity makes perfect sense. It adds flexibility to the godhead and allows Christians to explain (at least to their own satisfaction) much that would be anomalous if only one member of the Trinity was perceived to be God.

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Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
Well, that does make an interesting analogy under the "economy of salvation" that I believe in.

It's kind of what I said about Santa Claus---what we see in our folk law is a poor but useful example of a much deeper and significant reality.

I can only imagine how fascinating the reality of the trinity may be if we could only somehow grasp it.

(A 83 year old newborn with a beard doesn't pique my interest in anything at all.)
Zack -  Mr. GenXer Profile

Again, this sounds like b/s. You're ok though Tom.

Thrice Gotcha Profile
Thrice Gotcha answered

John 5:30

I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my
judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me,
not my own will.

your god must be schidzophrenic

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Just Ice
Just Ice commented
If only you'd address my questions I wouldn't have to ask them again and again.

1- "The bible is the inspired word of God" Which one? the 84-book Eastern Orthodox Bibles, 81-book Ethiopian Bibles, 73-book Catholic Bibles 66-book Protestant Bibles and, if the scriptures Jesus taught from was also a Bible then, there was a Bible with far fewer books than the Protestant Bibles. So, which is the inspired word of God?

2- There is only one Holy Qur'an [HQ] Read up independent, non biased, even non-Islamic sources and you'll see that Al Qur'an [Arabic] means The Recitation, because it's an oral tradition. Mohammed claimed it's verses were from God to be conveyed to people for information or as solutions to problems as they arose over the last 23 years of his life. The verses were memorised and this tradition of word for word memorisation has been kept alive by millions around the world to this day. That has made the HQ, as promised in its verses, indestructible and incorruptible. If all copies of the HQ were to be destroyed Muslims would reproduce another verbatim copy with no problem.

3- It is of deep regret to Muslims that the words of God which came to the likes of Abraham, Moses and Jesus were corrupted by men.
Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
@Just Ice

I have addressed your questions.

You have an oral tradition called the HQ.

Christians have a much older oral tradition, period.

Apparently you have restricted God's revelation to man to what is contained in your holy book.

I commend you to His mercy.
Just Ice
Just Ice commented
"Apparently you have restricted God's revelation to man to what is contained in your holy book." yes, a holy book which does not regard salvation as a sole preserve of those who follow the HQ but recognises salvation as having been granted to those who faithfully followed the teachings of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah and countless others who were sent to their respective people by God with His guidance tailored for their time, place and understanding. That makes good solid sense.

if you reveal to me the verses I've been asking for I'll believe you have a good basis for your belief in the trinity.

have a nice day
Call me Z Profile
Call me Z answered

We covered this ground, more or less, in an earlier question.

The latter is integral in supporting the former; though the Trinity is not a constant throughout every Christian denomination, while Christ's divinity is.

The number three (or, the triad) has held unique appeal in countless permutations from basic geometry and math (ex: It is the only number equal to the sum of all numbers before it) to navigation, astrology and superstition. It is not surprising then, that three can be put to such potent use in matters of faith as well, and is used abundently throughout the Bible: Noah had 3 sons (as did many others); Egypt was dark for 3 days; Jonah spent 3 days and nights in the whale; 3 Wise men; Peter denied 3 times; Jesus rose after 3 days, and on and on. 

I submit the attempt to solidify the ecclesiastical claim with the power of math is a clever one, though from the POV of this observer, carries the same standing as the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. 

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Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
Always enjoy your replies.

The number 3 was also quite meaningful to the Jews as well.

And I would suggest that the "generation" of Minerva in Roman mythology simply served to make the generation in the trinity not an entirely new concept----all of which I then put under the heading of "the economy of salvation / divine providence.

This just occurred to me, and I mention it because I find it possibly interesting.

I think you see the multiplicity the ways in which humans over the years propose an understanding of "God" as an example of entropy / disorder.

I tend to see it as a convergence, as in Alpha & Omega---but of course that, for various reasons, at least partially arises from my personal history.
Call me Z
Call me Z commented
Indeed I do, Tom. Different gods were fashioned to serve different purposes, to play to specific audiences. What is constant in all of them is the gods all like and/or hate the same things as those who created them.
Mostly, gods have served as a panacea for fear and ignorance, as a crutch for the desperate, and an illusory source of patrician (and especially, clerical) authority.
Pepper pot Profile
Pepper pot answered

In Jewish thought, the messiah could be anyone, and was not meant to be a "god." They are expecting an "anointed" king (mashiach), expected at the "end of days" (acharit ha-yamim). See link:-

The holy spirit in Judaism is "divine inspiration," it is different to the spirit, or the breath of God given to every living creature, it is a spirit that one channels and speaks Gods truth.  All prophets spoke in the Holy Spirit. However, it is not clear the difference, if any, between the Holy Spirit and the Shekinah (which denotes the divine settling, dwelling of God).

It was created among the first ten things on the first day of creation. Though the nature of the Holy Spirit is really nowhere described, the name indicates that it was conceived as a kind of wind that became manifest through noise and light. It was distinct. With Samson it was the sound of a bell, in other circumstances it is described as light or a strong wind.

Ezekiel 3:12 -14 Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place.  I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing.  So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me. 

There are two distinct spirits the Holy Spirit and the Unclean Spirit. Among the pagans Balaam, from being a mere interpreter of dreams, rose to be a magician and then a possessor of the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit did not appear to him except at night, all pagan prophets being in possession of their gift only then. The Balaam section was written in order to show why the Holy Spirit was taken from the pagans because Balaam desired to destroy a whole people without cause.

Numbers 31:16 and Rev 2:14, Balaam returned to King Balak and informed the king on how to get the Israelites to curse themselves by enticing them with prostitutes and unclean food sacrificed to idols.

The New Testament writers look upon the Messiah, who is actually identified with the Holy Spirit, as having arrived, their view assumes a form fundamentally different from that of the Jewish view in certain respects, as for the Messiah being conceived by the Holy Spirit etc.

In Judaism, Isaiah 9:6 Pele'-yo'ez-'el-gibbor-'abiy'ar-sar-shalom, is not meant to describe the child, but the situation to which that child is born (established in Isaiah 7-8): That God would preserve the throne of David in the kingdom of Judah through the threat of Israel, Syria, and Assyria.

In gnostic text, the word, or logos was from God, and so was the feminine counterpart Wisdom.

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Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
Second opinions are always interesting.

What is eventually important is whether they lead to conclusions that accurately reflect the nature of God.

One could argue that the Jews missed the whole point of who Jesus was and why he came.

Internet lists about 2 billion "Christians," 1.5 billion Muslims, and almost 15 million Jewish.

Maybe we should just take a vote and then agree that the result be deemed "The TRUTH."

I'm sure God would accept such an act of free will by the majority of His current living human creations.

No point in continuing to argue about whether or no God has given us insufficient---or what should be sufficient proof---of who He is in a form we might graciously accept.

Can't have this God being unreasonable now, can we?
Pepper pot
Pepper pot commented
I think it would be less of a vote and more of a personal journey if the Holy Spirit is the divine inspiration who dwells in a man who is worthy. Once that happens surely there is no question for the believer. Happy New year Tom.
Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
@Pepper pot

Happy New Year

"No one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Now God's Spirit, who reveals God, makes known to us Christ, his Word, his living Utterance, but the Spirit does not speak of himself. The Spirit who "has spoken through the prophets" makes us hear the Father's Word, but we do not hear the Spirit himself. We know him only in the movement by which he reveals the Word to us and disposes us to welcome him in faith. The Spirit of truth who "unveils" Christ to us "will not speak on his own." Such properly divine self-effacement explains why "the world cannot receive [him], because it neither sees him nor knows him," while those who believe in Christ know the Spirit because he dwells with them."

If one doesn't believe in the trinity, one misses a lot.
Just Ice Profile
Just Ice answered

1- "God incarnate" is an oxymoron. It's self contradictory. How can God [immortal] become flesh [mortal]?

2- If God BECAME Jesus then God would cease to exist, because He BECAME Jesus. For example, if a circle BECAME a square or a wooden rod  BECAME ashes then the circle would be no more neither would the wooden rod.

3- The trinity is never mentioned by name anywhere in the Bible and neither was the concept ever taught by Jesus or anyone before him.

4- On the contrary, one of the clearest and most unambiguous statements by Jesus is his declaration in John 17:3 that the Father is "the ONLY true God". In that simple and precise declaration Jesus rules out the possibility of him being God, or the Holy Spirit, or anyone or anything else.

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Just Ice
Just Ice commented
Just because you post personal remarks and believe in them doesn't make them true, TJ, they're a reflection of YOUR character and very strong signs that you have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that the trinity, which you regard so central to your salvation, was ever taught by God or Jesus in clear unambiguous terms

Anyway, Have a nice day
Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
@Just Ice

Suggesting that my belief in the qualities I predicate of you doesn't make them true is again your attempt to insist that there must be proof that something exists before it can be said to exist.

The earth revolved around the sun long before we knew it actually did.

You use logic as an talisman to prevent acquiring knowledge.
In you, logic is devoid of both fecundity and fertility.

And of course, I hope you have a nice day as well---although I'm not sure you has a substantial basis for having one.
Just Ice
Just Ice commented
oh don't you worry TJ I have a very substantial basis for having peace of mind that there is not a single verse anywhere in the Bible where either God or Jesus clearly and unambiguously taught the trinity. You have failed to show that you have even the flimsiest of basis.

have a nice day
Twallgirl Wallace Profile

The trinity is not supported by the bible. The bible tells us at John 17:3: "This means everlasting life, there coming to know you the only true God and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ:" This scripture helps us to see that God and Jesus are two separate individuals. Because God wouldn't send himself.

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Tom  Jackson
Tom Jackson commented
When you say that "the trinity is not supported by the bible" you are simply saying that nothing you have read in the bible make you think that the trinity does exist, and that any insights indicating that it does in fact exist are not persuasive---in your opinion.

We'll never know for sure whether it exists or not in this mode of existence.

Thanks for answering.

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